Martin Pollack: Those against supplying weapons to Ukraine don’t quite understand what pacifism means

Despite the geographical proximity of the two countries — Austria and Ukraine — Austrians know little about Ukraine and don’t quite understand it. Russia’s active “cultural diplomacy” has created the conditions for Austria to view the world through the prism of pro-Russian narratives. Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine is slowly changing the situation. What can we do to speed up the process? We will discuss this in a conversation with Austrian writer Martin Pollack, author of the books “The Dead Man in the Bunker,” “Contaminated Landscapes”, and “Topography of Remembrance”, which help to interpret World War II.

Chytomo: Russia and Austria have long had close political affiliations, and many Austrians still see the situation through the Russian optics. No need to repeat that Austrian politicians were the first to placate Putin after the annexation of Crimea.

Martin Pollack: Attitudes in Austria were extremely pro-Russian. That’s true. At the beginning of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, the Austrian writer Franzobel (real name Stefan Griebl) published an incredibly stupid text “Lob der Feigheit” (Praise for Cowardice) in “Der Standard.” In it, he suggested that Ukrainians shouldn’t fight, but surrender instead. Yes, your territory would be occupied, he wrote, and Ukraine, perhaps, would disappear as a state for a short period of time, but you would all be alive.

Does Putin plan to occupy Ukraine for a “short period of time?” No, his plan is for Ukraine to disappear forever.

Austria’s attitude toward sanctions against Russia isn’t clear yet. There are many reasons for this. Economic relations are the first reason. Austrian and Russian banks are interlinked to a great extent.

Russian gas is the second reason. Austria depended on Russia for up to 80 percent of its gas. Austrians, of course, were aware of the situation, but they said that Russian gas was cheap, and Russians — reliable partners. They said so even in 2014 when Crimea and eastern Ukraine were occupied.

The third reason is that many Austrians see Russia as being closer to them than America. 

There is a strong anti-American sentiment in Austria. It is interesting that Austria suffered from the Soviet army, not the American army. To put it in primitive metaphors, Russians raped women, while Americans gave them chocolate. 

“The deep Russian soul” and “great Russian literature” is something people say, but they have never read Dostoyevsky, Lermontov, or Tolstoy. Nevertheless, they are convinced that Russia has a great culture, and America has only nonsense. 

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Chytomo: It is obvious that people in Europe did not quite understand Russia’s true intentions both after the annexation of part of Georgia in 2008 and after the annexation of Crimea in 2014. Do you think that Austrians have already realized the Kremlin’s intention to destroy the collective West, Europe and America?

Martin Pollack: I don’t think so. Back in 2014, I said it wasn’t just about Ukraine or Crimea, but about the whole of Europe. Many people disagree and state we need to negotiate with Putin. That’s exactly what all Austrian politicians think. Chancellor Karl Negammer went to see Putin at the beginning of the full-scale invasion. What he did was ridiculous. Everyone knows that Austria is not a major political player. It only showed Russia that they are not isolated because European politicians are coming to talk to Putin.

The understanding of the real situation is still lacking in Austria. The root of this problem is that Austria cannot comprehend what Ukraine actually is.

One of my friends, an aristocrat born in Prague involved in Eastern Europe studies for a long time, asked me two years ago: “Martin, is Ukraine a state? Isn’t Ukrainian language a Russian dialect?”

These are Putin’s exact words: that Ukraine never existed. Many Austrians believed this. And this changed with the outbreak of a full-scale invasion. The brutality of Russia, the massacre Russian troops had committed, demonstrates barbarism, not the “mysterious Russian soul” and great culture.  

Chytomo: I would like to go a bit deeper into the topic of the pro-Russian worldview. In my opinion the prevalence of this view  is due to the fact that Ukraine wasn’t present in the information field for many years, and Slavic studies departments mostly taught Russian, not Ukrainian or other Slavic languages. In addition, Russian cultural diplomacy was quite powerful. I remember an exhibition in the Albertina, the largest art gallery in Vienna where Stalin and Nicholas I of Russia stood together. In his recent interview, Mikhail Piotrovsky, director of the Hermitage Museum, argued that the Russian presence abroad is an instrument of cultural dominance and that an exhibition in Paris, for example, means a Russian flag over the Bois de Boulogne. It seems to me that this pro-Russian attitude is deeply ingrained in Austria. What needs to be done to make Austrians accept what is hidden behind cultural diplomacy?

Martin Pollack: There are many discussions on this topic in the field of music. For example, the famous musician Anna Netrebko has both Austrian and Russian citizenship. Many people said she only worked in the culture field, not in politics. Nonsense. She is, of course, involved. It isn’t hard to find pictures of her proudly standing with the DPR flag. She said she didn’t know what kind of flag it was. Oh come on… Of course she knew where she was standing and what kind of flag it was. 

There is also a Greek-Russian conductor, Teodor Currentzis (he played the main role in DAU, a film by Ilya Khrzhanovskiy), who is very popular in Europe. There are discussions about whether he can perform. At first, he was given a chance to perform. Although in 2014 he took Russian citizenship when Putin offered it to him.

In Vienna, people love music and are crazy about opera. Austrians literally worship Netrebko. This is a good argument for Russians. We wage a war, but here is our culture. We are not barbarians. Our art is the pinnacle of culture. No one can do it better than us.

Chytomo: What can we do to change these pro-Russian optics?

Martin Pollack: What you need to do is to spread Ukrainian culture. It is possible. Serhiy Zhadan, for example, is very popular here, but I must admit that a mostly marginalized group of people is interested in Ukrainian literature. Actually, not many people are interested in literature as a whole. 

It is true that Anna Netrebko does not sing an ode to Putin. She sings Italian opera. But she is involved in Putin’s affairs, just like many other artists. They have earned incredible amounts of money in the West and live here. And what do those who shout about the decaying West do? Their children go to school in Switzerland, Austria, or Britain. They also buy their villas there. 

We need to work continuously. We have to invite Ukrainian authors, grant them scholarships, and the opportunity to live in the West  longer.

At the beginning of the full-scale invasion, I organized a big event at the Volksstheater in Vienna. I was in the hospital at the time, undergoing chemotherapy. I started calling everyone who could help. Representatives of the theater agreed and supported the idea. Everything was organized during two weeks, and it was a great success.

Austrian authors read works by Ukrainian authors. It was an incredible event, almost 600 people came to see and to listen. The publicity was incredible. Doing this is extremely important. This should be done individually, no need to wait for an institution to do it. 

Unfortunately, there is not much interest in Eastern Europe. This also applies to language. Germans and Austrians go to the Czech Republic and speak German there, expecting to be understood. But this is the Czech Republic, not Germany. This is the colonial experience, the consciousness from the time of Nazism, the idea that Slavs are somehow worse. That the West has a high culture and should bring this culture to the East.

Chytomo: In your book “Contaminated Landscapes,” you write about the land and the places that have lost hundreds, thousands of people. As an author who has worked with such a complicated topic, do you see history repeating itself and the rise of the ideology of fascism in the 21st century?

Martin Pollack: I really can’t say that everything is the same, that Putin is Hitler, and that everything is repeated exactly, but it is true that many things are repeated. In particular, territorial claims like “Russia is where Russians are.” Germans did the same about the Sudetenland.

There are many obvious analogies. For example, Russians committed a massacre, and like all criminals, they try to hide their crime. No corpse — no crime. They try to bury the bodies, to make it look like nothing happened. The Nazis did the same thing. Moreover, they approached the issue like gardeners: they planted trees and flowers on the gravesites. So that there was no trace of it. In Ukraine, there was no time for this now, but the intention is the same. Russians are trying to hide the truth from the world. They are trying to camouflage it.

Exactly the same thing happened in Katyn, when Russians said that the executions were carried out by the Nazis. It could have been Nazis, but in this case it was Russians. That’s the way it was. This is the logic that Putin is using now. He is lying. Putin is lying and he knows that his interlocutor knows that he is lying, but he is lying anyway. No one dares to say, “Hey Putin, you are lying.” It’s politeness, diplomacy, and fear. This is where Putin triumphs. It is his internal triumph, because he lies to the face of the whole world.

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Chytomo: When I see news about mass graves in Bucha, Izyum or Lyman, torture, rape, I often think of your books. It’s hard to accept the fact that history is repeating itself. In the 21st century, a time of democracy and freedom, Russia is committing genocide. As you wrote, in Nazi times there were many inactive observers. And now the world is watching this tragedy and cannot or does not want to stop it.

Martin Pollack: I wonder why feminist organizations have not reacted critically to these numerous rapes. Women are incredibly brave. If you look at the protests in Poland, Belarus, or even Russia, there are many women participating in them, taking the initiative. I think the feminists community’s reaction to Russian atrocities was too weak. 

Unfortunately, rape is a form of war. It is a weapon. Russians use rape as a weapon. To break people morally, to destroy them. This is the experience of World War II. Response of the West is delayed, everyone is too cautious. There are letters from German intellectuals who write that we must return to dialogue with Russia. Even Jürgen Habermas, an incredibly wise and sharp thinker, stated this.

Those who say there’s nothing we can achieve using weapons have a poor understanding of the concept of pacifism. Right now, something can only be done with weapons. Conversations will be held later.

First of all Russians must be defeated, destroyed and their troops must be withdrawn from the entire territory of Ukraine. There must be no compromises. It’s so funny that here in the West they say that Ukraine will not be much smaller if we give up a small part of it, like Luhansk or Donetsk. There are people who say: well, many Ukrainians speak Russian. Yes, of course, just like there are Swiss who speak French, there are Swiss who speak Italian. No one would say that they are French or Italian. There are countries with linguistic diversity. Thank God there are!

Chytomo: You have been working on comprehending the theme of World War II. I often think of Theodor Adorno’s words about what kind of literature is possible after Auschwitz? In your opinion, what kind of literature is possible after Bucha, Izyum, and other occupied cities where people are being killed in real time?

Martin Pollack: It is impossible to fully comprehend the war so far, it is too early. But we need to document it.

In Europe, it was believed that such evil was no longer possible, that we were living in different times. I am a child of war, born in 1944. I was in a house that was bombed for over 48 hours, we were hiding in the basement. Then they had to dig us out of the rubble. And it was easy to overlook a small child… 

I often think that my life began in war and will end in war.

We are used to living in safety. That there are human rights, and a person goes skiing and hundreds of ski lifts go up and down for you. These are human rights for the younger generation.

They think that this is the world, that it consists of this. They go out in the evening until 3 a.m. and they have enough money and a car. This is how they grew up. 

Now we face a new challenge, because we also have to fight for democracy. Democracy is not given by God, no. It is not a water tap that you open and water pours out. No one asks themselves: where does this water come from? It doesn’t matter where it comes from.

Many people think that it is the same with democracy. That it is here, no one is killing us, that we live in a democratic country. Yes, with many shortcomings, but we don’t have to do anything because everything is functioning as it is. We have to make efforts every day for democracy. We have to fight, criticize, and protest.

Copy editing: Lea Ann Douglas